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	<title>Comments on: Girard, sacrifice, and the (Holy Sacrifice of the) Mass, Part II</title>
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	<link>http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/girard-sacrifice-and-the-holy-sacrifice-of-the-mass-part-ii/</link>
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		<title>By: What do I offer? &#171; Whosoever Desires</title>
		<link>http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/girard-sacrifice-and-the-holy-sacrifice-of-the-mass-part-ii/#comment-4111</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[What do I offer? &#171; Whosoever Desires]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Apr 2011 19:27:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/?p=1876#comment-4111</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] work on a master’s thesis about sacrifice and the Mass (some of the ideas for which I test drove here on Whoseoever Desires), and my research has raised a question so basic we usually forget to ask it:  [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] work on a master’s thesis about sacrifice and the Mass (some of the ideas for which I test drove here on Whoseoever Desires), and my research has raised a question so basic we usually forget to ask it:  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew McKenna</title>
		<link>http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/girard-sacrifice-and-the-holy-sacrifice-of-the-mass-part-ii/#comment-3835</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrew McKenna]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Feb 2011 16:47:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/?p=1876#comment-3835</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A spectacular instance is Judah offering himself to Joseph in place of his father&#039;s beloved Benjamin. He cannot know what will happen to him and he acts out of filial love for his father--even tho&#039; his fatgehr prefers Ben. to all.
Another is the concubine who offers her baby back to her rival who is willing to see it killed by King Solomon. She runs to risk of being executed, we know. In  BOTH stories, a person serves as a model for the authority: Joseph embraces his brothers, doubtless inspired by Judah&#039;s self- giving. Solomon wisdom is modeled after the &quot;true mother.&quot; I am not a Scripture scholar, so I can offer only big examples right off the bat, but they are probative and both are seen as prophetic of the Passion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A spectacular instance is Judah offering himself to Joseph in place of his father&#8217;s beloved Benjamin. He cannot know what will happen to him and he acts out of filial love for his father&#8211;even tho&#8217; his fatgehr prefers Ben. to all.<br />
Another is the concubine who offers her baby back to her rival who is willing to see it killed by King Solomon. She runs to risk of being executed, we know. In  BOTH stories, a person serves as a model for the authority: Joseph embraces his brothers, doubtless inspired by Judah&#8217;s self- giving. Solomon wisdom is modeled after the &#8220;true mother.&#8221; I am not a Scripture scholar, so I can offer only big examples right off the bat, but they are probative and both are seen as prophetic of the Passion.</p>
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		<title>By: More Girard&#8230; &#171; Whosoever Desires</title>
		<link>http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/girard-sacrifice-and-the-holy-sacrifice-of-the-mass-part-ii/#comment-2829</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[More Girard&#8230; &#171; Whosoever Desires]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Nov 2010 14:53:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/?p=1876#comment-2829</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] I tried to summarize some of the ideas from earlier discussion here on Whosoever Desires.  (The original posts are here and here.) [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I tried to summarize some of the ideas from earlier discussion here on Whosoever Desires.  (The original posts are here and here.) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew McKenna</title>
		<link>http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/girard-sacrifice-and-the-holy-sacrifice-of-the-mass-part-ii/#comment-1780</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrew McKenna]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 May 2010 21:41:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/?p=1876#comment-1780</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tony is right. Girard is 1. not a theologian or trying to be one and 2. thoroughly orthodox in his adherence to  Catholic doctrine. He has described himself as &quot;an ordinary Christian.&quot; The paradox here is that his writings ignite much enthusiasm among theologians, scriptural scholars, and people involved in all sorts of  pastoral work. To understand this, I refer you (all) once again to the writings of James Alison, who covers Girard&#039;s theological wing, so to speak, and of whom Rowan Williams write: &quot;Alison makes the New Testament fell new.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tony is right. Girard is 1. not a theologian or trying to be one and 2. thoroughly orthodox in his adherence to  Catholic doctrine. He has described himself as &#8220;an ordinary Christian.&#8221; The paradox here is that his writings ignite much enthusiasm among theologians, scriptural scholars, and people involved in all sorts of  pastoral work. To understand this, I refer you (all) once again to the writings of James Alison, who covers Girard&#8217;s theological wing, so to speak, and of whom Rowan Williams write: &#8220;Alison makes the New Testament fell new.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew McKenna</title>
		<link>http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/girard-sacrifice-and-the-holy-sacrifice-of-the-mass-part-ii/#comment-1768</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Andrew McKenna]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 May 2010 18:46:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/?p=1876#comment-1768</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I sometimes call myself Girard&#039;s midwest distributor since I&#039;ve been working on his ideas for more than 40 years. I find Tony&#039;s portrayal of the interest and the limits of Girardian anthopology quite accurate and stimulating. Girard is NOT a theologian, but there are some theologians out there like James Alison who coordinate Mimetic Theory quite luminously with Scriptural Studies, Systematic Theology, and Ecclesiology. I&#039;ll try to get him to given another talk on campus next year some time.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I sometimes call myself Girard&#8217;s midwest distributor since I&#8217;ve been working on his ideas for more than 40 years. I find Tony&#8217;s portrayal of the interest and the limits of Girardian anthopology quite accurate and stimulating. Girard is NOT a theologian, but there are some theologians out there like James Alison who coordinate Mimetic Theory quite luminously with Scriptural Studies, Systematic Theology, and Ecclesiology. I&#8217;ll try to get him to given another talk on campus next year some time.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony Lusvardi, SJ</title>
		<link>http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/girard-sacrifice-and-the-holy-sacrifice-of-the-mass-part-ii/#comment-1702</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anthony Lusvardi, SJ]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 May 2010 21:53:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/?p=1876#comment-1702</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks, CP.  I would say, though, that the views of McCormick and Girard are not interchangeable.  I don&#039;t really agree with McCormick&#039;s interpretation of Girard, and I think that Girard can be interpreted in ways that are much more in keeping with the Catechism (and Sacrosanctum Concilium) than what McCormick offers...

Glad you&#039;re reading the blog!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, CP.  I would say, though, that the views of McCormick and Girard are not interchangeable.  I don&#8217;t really agree with McCormick&#8217;s interpretation of Girard, and I think that Girard can be interpreted in ways that are much more in keeping with the Catechism (and Sacrosanctum Concilium) than what McCormick offers&#8230;</p>
<p>Glad you&#8217;re reading the blog!</p>
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		<title>By: cp-yakdiocese</title>
		<link>http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/girard-sacrifice-and-the-holy-sacrifice-of-the-mass-part-ii/#comment-1699</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cp-yakdiocese]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 May 2010 18:34:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/?p=1876#comment-1699</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great review! I am a seminarian at gonzaga university, and I am just finishing a class with McCormick, I was completely turned off by his attack on the notion of sacrifice. It seems that McCormick and Girard are offering (no pun intended) a different term for &quot;sacrifice&quot; than is offered in the catechism and in the summa.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great review! I am a seminarian at gonzaga university, and I am just finishing a class with McCormick, I was completely turned off by his attack on the notion of sacrifice. It seems that McCormick and Girard are offering (no pun intended) a different term for &#8220;sacrifice&#8221; than is offered in the catechism and in the summa.</p>
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		<title>By: Confessing Evangelical &#187; The cross, horizontal and vertical</title>
		<link>http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/girard-sacrifice-and-the-holy-sacrifice-of-the-mass-part-ii/#comment-1684</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Confessing Evangelical &#187; The cross, horizontal and vertical]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:24:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/?p=1876#comment-1684</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] posts. I think some hints of where an answer might be found can be seen in the final paragraphs of this post at Whosoever Desires (a very Girardian blog name!), while others can be found in the observation someone made on my [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] posts. I think some hints of where an answer might be found can be seen in the final paragraphs of this post at Whosoever Desires (a very Girardian blog name!), while others can be found in the observation someone made on my [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Virgilijus Kaulius</title>
		<link>http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/girard-sacrifice-and-the-holy-sacrifice-of-the-mass-part-ii/#comment-1652</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Virgilijus Kaulius]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Apr 2010 23:08:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/?p=1876#comment-1652</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Challenging further musings, Anthony, while simultaneously further challenges to reason&#039;s
incapacity to both analyze and comprehend the
mystery of it all: over the millennia, we make small
strides, never quantum leaps....

All Christian scholars converge on &quot;paradox&quot; as norm.
For us. All Jewish scholars have been for the most
part lost in, and to, our Tradition! So, for us
to take topical potshots at OT interpretation is
now I posit a maturity-required turning point in our
Salvation History escapade.... In End-times reality
(cf. Zachariah, ch. 8) the Hebrew and the Christian
Churches will be reunited as when we took our 1st
baby steps! Meantime, it&#039;s time our Age starts this
process of mutual rediscovery, mutual sharing of two
distinctive yet universal Covenants, and converge
on our common destiny! The Last Banquet will be One!

During the interval, we play with the little we&#039;ve
inherited, share the few marbles (of understanding)
we have, and remember in Whose Name the game (of life)
is played: it&#039;s always, His stage we&#039;re on!

Therein there is a unity (of the crowd!) in Christ
-but never yes, in the crowd itself, as such-
and, an encounter with reason taking turns in the road
of understanding, definitively existential and only
topically rational!

Everybody, and every language (both human &amp; Divine!)
has a hermeneutic! Because we, we Xians, do not
have a predictable God! Fissures and volcanoes are
expected, as the norm: clear logical analysis is our
idolatrous self-deception!

Xtian Life is wholistic plus holistic. Because Xt
unifies all (cf. Chardin) to heal humanity and restore
wholeness (lost by the 1st Adam):
- His birth endorses creation;
- His death judges it;
- His resurrection re-connects it with Eternity,
and the Trinity in toto.

Prayer is therefore an expression of this re-connection, at its highest human form in the mystery
of the Mass.

And its profundity will only in ongoing Millennia 
begin to be grasped by the crowd when it looks
beyond itself to the cosmological realization that
we will as a crowd only learn to love and apply
the 11th Commandment, once we realize first,
that we are loved. Unconditionally.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Challenging further musings, Anthony, while simultaneously further challenges to reason&#8217;s<br />
incapacity to both analyze and comprehend the<br />
mystery of it all: over the millennia, we make small<br />
strides, never quantum leaps&#8230;.</p>
<p>All Christian scholars converge on &#8220;paradox&#8221; as norm.<br />
For us. All Jewish scholars have been for the most<br />
part lost in, and to, our Tradition! So, for us<br />
to take topical potshots at OT interpretation is<br />
now I posit a maturity-required turning point in our<br />
Salvation History escapade&#8230;. In End-times reality<br />
(cf. Zachariah, ch. 8) the Hebrew and the Christian<br />
Churches will be reunited as when we took our 1st<br />
baby steps! Meantime, it&#8217;s time our Age starts this<br />
process of mutual rediscovery, mutual sharing of two<br />
distinctive yet universal Covenants, and converge<br />
on our common destiny! The Last Banquet will be One!</p>
<p>During the interval, we play with the little we&#8217;ve<br />
inherited, share the few marbles (of understanding)<br />
we have, and remember in Whose Name the game (of life)<br />
is played: it&#8217;s always, His stage we&#8217;re on!</p>
<p>Therein there is a unity (of the crowd!) in Christ<br />
-but never yes, in the crowd itself, as such-<br />
and, an encounter with reason taking turns in the road<br />
of understanding, definitively existential and only<br />
topically rational!</p>
<p>Everybody, and every language (both human &amp; Divine!)<br />
has a hermeneutic! Because we, we Xians, do not<br />
have a predictable God! Fissures and volcanoes are<br />
expected, as the norm: clear logical analysis is our<br />
idolatrous self-deception!</p>
<p>Xtian Life is wholistic plus holistic. Because Xt<br />
unifies all (cf. Chardin) to heal humanity and restore<br />
wholeness (lost by the 1st Adam):<br />
- His birth endorses creation;<br />
- His death judges it;<br />
- His resurrection re-connects it with Eternity,<br />
and the Trinity in toto.</p>
<p>Prayer is therefore an expression of this re-connection, at its highest human form in the mystery<br />
of the Mass.</p>
<p>And its profundity will only in ongoing Millennia<br />
begin to be grasped by the crowd when it looks<br />
beyond itself to the cosmological realization that<br />
we will as a crowd only learn to love and apply<br />
the 11th Commandment, once we realize first,<br />
that we are loved. Unconditionally.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony Lusvardi, SJ</title>
		<link>http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/girard-sacrifice-and-the-holy-sacrifice-of-the-mass-part-ii/#comment-1644</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anthony Lusvardi, SJ]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Apr 2010 13:24:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/?p=1876#comment-1644</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Philip,

Now, that is an interesting question.  As I was working on the post, I was wondering about what it meant for concelebration (or co-presidency, as you put it) but didn&#039;t come to any definite conclusions.

I think you&#039;re right that concelebration probably tends to weaken the stress on Christ&#039;s aloneness (and vice versa).  This doesn&#039;t mean that there aren&#039;t other compelling factors that weigh in concelebration&#039;s favor, the priest wanting to exercise his Eucharistic ministry, for example, which he might (and probably should!) see as an important service to the People of God. 

Even if these other considerations in the end outweigh the &quot;minuses&quot; against concelebration, at the least the stress on Christ&#039;s aloneness calls for attentiveness to the way concelebration is carried out, even what might seem like mundane logistical details like where the priests stand.  We&#039;d probably want to avoid it seeming like there&#039;s a crowd around the altar.

As I was thinking about your question, I was also thinking about the notion of distances in the liturgy... all the distances surrounding Christ in his moment of absolute aloneness, as well as the distances that are overcome (between heaven and earth, between God and humanity) in the Eucharist... it seems important that the liturgy somehow maintains these distances, at the very least so that we have a sense of them being overcome... this might also factor into the concelebration question, but I&#039;m not sure exactly how yet.

Anyway, I&#039;m really glad the post got you thinking and would be very glad to hear any other ideas, questions, challenges, musings you have...

Tony]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Philip,</p>
<p>Now, that is an interesting question.  As I was working on the post, I was wondering about what it meant for concelebration (or co-presidency, as you put it) but didn&#8217;t come to any definite conclusions.</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;re right that concelebration probably tends to weaken the stress on Christ&#8217;s aloneness (and vice versa).  This doesn&#8217;t mean that there aren&#8217;t other compelling factors that weigh in concelebration&#8217;s favor, the priest wanting to exercise his Eucharistic ministry, for example, which he might (and probably should!) see as an important service to the People of God. </p>
<p>Even if these other considerations in the end outweigh the &#8220;minuses&#8221; against concelebration, at the least the stress on Christ&#8217;s aloneness calls for attentiveness to the way concelebration is carried out, even what might seem like mundane logistical details like where the priests stand.  We&#8217;d probably want to avoid it seeming like there&#8217;s a crowd around the altar.</p>
<p>As I was thinking about your question, I was also thinking about the notion of distances in the liturgy&#8230; all the distances surrounding Christ in his moment of absolute aloneness, as well as the distances that are overcome (between heaven and earth, between God and humanity) in the Eucharist&#8230; it seems important that the liturgy somehow maintains these distances, at the very least so that we have a sense of them being overcome&#8230; this might also factor into the concelebration question, but I&#8217;m not sure exactly how yet.</p>
<p>Anyway, I&#8217;m really glad the post got you thinking and would be very glad to hear any other ideas, questions, challenges, musings you have&#8230;</p>
<p>Tony</p>
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