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	<title>Comments on: Bl. Matteo Ricci?</title>
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		<title>By: Henry Karlson</title>
		<link>http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/2010/01/28/bl-matteo-ricci/#comment-879</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Henry Karlson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 17:38:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[There is a volume of his writings, The True Meaning of the Lord of Heaven, published in 1985.


As an interesting aside, I would also recommend the writings of de Nobili (Teaching Wisdom to the Wise -- I think that&#039;s the name of the collection of de Nobili texts translated into English).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a volume of his writings, The True Meaning of the Lord of Heaven, published in 1985.</p>
<p>As an interesting aside, I would also recommend the writings of de Nobili (Teaching Wisdom to the Wise &#8212; I think that&#8217;s the name of the collection of de Nobili texts translated into English).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Virgilijus Kaulius</title>
		<link>http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/2010/01/28/bl-matteo-ricci/#comment-873</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Virgilijus Kaulius]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 04:08:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/?p=1411#comment-873</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The wisdom of what Ricci both did, and accomplished
will probably continue to be debated for Millennia,
because we confront mere &quot;reason&quot; as logic: 
   WE ONLY KNOW what WE have created, period!
Revelation is not our creation: it is the Creator&#039;s!
Nature is not our creation: it is the Creator&#039;s!

  So, Church HISTORY is our creation: NOT the
Creator&#039;s! Therefore, after these 2 Millennia it&#039;s
time to stop the childish lie that there is something
sacred in this creation of ours! WE ARE a pilgrim
church, and will forever continue to CHANGE and GROW
until the 2nd Coming! Immature adult parading in the name of intelligence which is nothing more than
childish pablum needs to end in this 3rd Millennium!
   
   Ricci had it right: the Church did not, and needs
to eat its words, and learn from it so it stops
silencing the Ricci&#039;s and the Chardin&#039;s and the
many other prophetic voices to come!

   Behind all that is the tool of the mind in only
using &quot;rhetoric&quot; without realizing it, not &quot;givens!&quot;
It is rhetoric that got history into existence!
   All history, all ethics, sit at the feet of
rhetoric: we will never have one and only one
solution therein to anything: we are not angels!
We are finite humans!
   THAT was the key argument by Origen against Celsius
that we are not an idea or philosophy but an Event!
Christianity can only demonstrate its orthodoxy,
not its source. Its source is beyond it: it is Divine!
   Moreover, the pure genius (or inspiration?) of St.
John was similar -to not appeal to reason, to logic-
but to the &quot;afterlife&quot; as the reason, the purpose,
to who and what we are! Anyone who takes his/er eyes
off that, will always definitively err, and even
at times fail! 
   Eternal Life is the reason for ourselves and
therefore by definition, Ricci in attempting to
present Eternal Life to a culture different from
Rome&#039;s was right, and Rome was pathetically wrong
in clinging to IT OWN definition of &quot;its&quot; HISTORY!
   Most forget that even Augustin was novel, LIKE
Ricci when he deviated from using philosophy (the
Greek norm for the times for itself and for its gods!)
to defend Christianity but instead used the vehicle
of belief: &#039;I believe in order to know&#039; and not
the other way around!

   Neither reason, nor tradition, are omnipotent!
We have to admit &quot;rhetoric&quot; into our vocabulary
and stop pride ruling our assumed definitions of
&quot;history!&quot;
   This dilemma of &quot;knowing&quot; can be cast in such
terms of analytical vs. rhetorical forms of 
knowing. &quot;Analytics&quot; tends toward the descriptive, that which does not change, and thus science.
&quot;Rhetoric&quot; in its ancient form concerns human
decisions about that which necessarily could be
otherwise!
   In Cicero&#039;s words, as an act of intentional 
imagination built on a shared vision of the good,
the beautiful, and the true, rhetoric was the ENGINE
of civilization, that is, of human History!.
   Since science, philosophy, and theology, even as
they seek to analyze and explain the world, are
themselves deeply historically embedded -abstract
constructions of particular individuals- then history,
even with all its problematics and ambiguities,
is nevertheless the fundamental category of human
existence! With therein standing at the core of
history, personal agency and community, thereby
negating any certitudinal permanence in any 
definitional attempts to circumscribe God with
our finite pathetic mere logic!!! 
   Rome needs to learn humility from a Ricci, from
a Chardin, and never again associate with the Rabbi
concept of leadership!
   Knowledge is to be in the service of life and
not the other way around, an end in itself!

    Christianity originally insisted that it was a
story about an Agent, whose fundamental concern
was neither knowledge nor even individual virtue,
but God&#039;s life in us pointing to Eternal Life:
otherwise we stay 6 feet under with nowhere to go!!!

   The parallel (for me) exemple of Ricci&#039;s inspired
genius is de Brebeuf&#039;s similar profound poem written
for the Huron&#039;s in the words of the &quot;Huron Carol,&quot;
set to the adapted music of &quot;Silent Night!&quot;
(cf. www.virgil.kaulius.com)

   May the Spirit get through the arrogance of our
thick skins and thin it over the Millennia as we
grow towards the Omega Point of our history,
a history driven more by  Kyros  timing 
than our limited  Kronos  time!!!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The wisdom of what Ricci both did, and accomplished<br />
will probably continue to be debated for Millennia,<br />
because we confront mere &#8220;reason&#8221; as logic:<br />
   WE ONLY KNOW what WE have created, period!<br />
Revelation is not our creation: it is the Creator&#8217;s!<br />
Nature is not our creation: it is the Creator&#8217;s!</p>
<p>  So, Church HISTORY is our creation: NOT the<br />
Creator&#8217;s! Therefore, after these 2 Millennia it&#8217;s<br />
time to stop the childish lie that there is something<br />
sacred in this creation of ours! WE ARE a pilgrim<br />
church, and will forever continue to CHANGE and GROW<br />
until the 2nd Coming! Immature adult parading in the name of intelligence which is nothing more than<br />
childish pablum needs to end in this 3rd Millennium!</p>
<p>   Ricci had it right: the Church did not, and needs<br />
to eat its words, and learn from it so it stops<br />
silencing the Ricci&#8217;s and the Chardin&#8217;s and the<br />
many other prophetic voices to come!</p>
<p>   Behind all that is the tool of the mind in only<br />
using &#8220;rhetoric&#8221; without realizing it, not &#8220;givens!&#8221;<br />
It is rhetoric that got history into existence!<br />
   All history, all ethics, sit at the feet of<br />
rhetoric: we will never have one and only one<br />
solution therein to anything: we are not angels!<br />
We are finite humans!<br />
   THAT was the key argument by Origen against Celsius<br />
that we are not an idea or philosophy but an Event!<br />
Christianity can only demonstrate its orthodoxy,<br />
not its source. Its source is beyond it: it is Divine!<br />
   Moreover, the pure genius (or inspiration?) of St.<br />
John was similar -to not appeal to reason, to logic-<br />
but to the &#8220;afterlife&#8221; as the reason, the purpose,<br />
to who and what we are! Anyone who takes his/er eyes<br />
off that, will always definitively err, and even<br />
at times fail!<br />
   Eternal Life is the reason for ourselves and<br />
therefore by definition, Ricci in attempting to<br />
present Eternal Life to a culture different from<br />
Rome&#8217;s was right, and Rome was pathetically wrong<br />
in clinging to IT OWN definition of &#8220;its&#8221; HISTORY!<br />
   Most forget that even Augustin was novel, LIKE<br />
Ricci when he deviated from using philosophy (the<br />
Greek norm for the times for itself and for its gods!)<br />
to defend Christianity but instead used the vehicle<br />
of belief: &#8216;I believe in order to know&#8217; and not<br />
the other way around!</p>
<p>   Neither reason, nor tradition, are omnipotent!<br />
We have to admit &#8220;rhetoric&#8221; into our vocabulary<br />
and stop pride ruling our assumed definitions of<br />
&#8220;history!&#8221;<br />
   This dilemma of &#8220;knowing&#8221; can be cast in such<br />
terms of analytical vs. rhetorical forms of<br />
knowing. &#8220;Analytics&#8221; tends toward the descriptive, that which does not change, and thus science.<br />
&#8220;Rhetoric&#8221; in its ancient form concerns human<br />
decisions about that which necessarily could be<br />
otherwise!<br />
   In Cicero&#8217;s words, as an act of intentional<br />
imagination built on a shared vision of the good,<br />
the beautiful, and the true, rhetoric was the ENGINE<br />
of civilization, that is, of human History!.<br />
   Since science, philosophy, and theology, even as<br />
they seek to analyze and explain the world, are<br />
themselves deeply historically embedded -abstract<br />
constructions of particular individuals- then history,<br />
even with all its problematics and ambiguities,<br />
is nevertheless the fundamental category of human<br />
existence! With therein standing at the core of<br />
history, personal agency and community, thereby<br />
negating any certitudinal permanence in any<br />
definitional attempts to circumscribe God with<br />
our finite pathetic mere logic!!!<br />
   Rome needs to learn humility from a Ricci, from<br />
a Chardin, and never again associate with the Rabbi<br />
concept of leadership!<br />
   Knowledge is to be in the service of life and<br />
not the other way around, an end in itself!</p>
<p>    Christianity originally insisted that it was a<br />
story about an Agent, whose fundamental concern<br />
was neither knowledge nor even individual virtue,<br />
but God&#8217;s life in us pointing to Eternal Life:<br />
otherwise we stay 6 feet under with nowhere to go!!!</p>
<p>   The parallel (for me) exemple of Ricci&#8217;s inspired<br />
genius is de Brebeuf&#8217;s similar profound poem written<br />
for the Huron&#8217;s in the words of the &#8220;Huron Carol,&#8221;<br />
set to the adapted music of &#8220;Silent Night!&#8221;<br />
(cf. <a href="http://www.virgil.kaulius.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.virgil.kaulius.com</a>)</p>
<p>   May the Spirit get through the arrogance of our<br />
thick skins and thin it over the Millennia as we<br />
grow towards the Omega Point of our history,<br />
a history driven more by  Kyros  timing<br />
than our limited  Kronos  time!!!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Giovanni</title>
		<link>http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/2010/01/28/bl-matteo-ricci/#comment-872</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Giovanni]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 02:14:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/?p=1411#comment-872</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Qualis Rex is absolutely right. 

Excellent Post.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Qualis Rex is absolutely right. </p>
<p>Excellent Post.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/2010/01/28/bl-matteo-ricci/#comment-871</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Henry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jan 2010 00:53:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/?p=1411#comment-871</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wonderful comments and an important distinction between &quot;Missa Luba&quot; and Chicago -thank you for making that point!

Pax,

Henry]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wonderful comments and an important distinction between &#8220;Missa Luba&#8221; and Chicago -thank you for making that point!</p>
<p>Pax,</p>
<p>Henry</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Qualis Rex</title>
		<link>http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/2010/01/28/bl-matteo-ricci/#comment-867</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Qualis Rex]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 17:28:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/?p=1411#comment-867</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the danger with Ricci&#039;s approach is that were the church not already so institutional during his time, there would have been a definite risk of creating a &quot;sect&quot; or &quot;cult&quot; as we have seen time and time again. While I am very much an advocate of creating rites which culturally and/or linguistically resonate the most with a particular society, we must remember that a watered-down version of the Catholic faith is not &quot;better than nothing&quot;.

Two quick examples to underscore my point: 1) the &quot;Missa Luba&quot; of the Congo, whose beauty nearly brings tears to my eyes everytime I hear it 2) Chicago&#039;s Saint Sabina&#039;s &quot;Faith Based Community&quot; with Pfleger as ringleader. The former was a genuine construct to reach out to the local population and offer a completely orthodox Catholic liturgy encorporating elements familiar to the them which in no way detracted from its message, spirit or reverence. The latter is a pittiable condenscending attempt steeped in an anachronistic &quot;white guilt&quot; and belief that the local population can&#039;t theologically or practically handle &quot;real&quot; Catholicism; so this is the next best thing. Tripe.

The Catholic church in China is indeed a success story (as is the church in Japan, IMHO) given the centuries of harsh persecution and oppression.  It&#039;s not about numbers, it&#039;s about an enduring faith, a beacon of good news, and a legacy of orthodoxy available to future generations should they wish to receive it. If Bl Matteo Ricci is in any way responsible for this legacy, then I too hope he will be canonized.  Either way, I will of course submit to the verdict of the church on this one.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the danger with Ricci&#8217;s approach is that were the church not already so institutional during his time, there would have been a definite risk of creating a &#8220;sect&#8221; or &#8220;cult&#8221; as we have seen time and time again. While I am very much an advocate of creating rites which culturally and/or linguistically resonate the most with a particular society, we must remember that a watered-down version of the Catholic faith is not &#8220;better than nothing&#8221;.</p>
<p>Two quick examples to underscore my point: 1) the &#8220;Missa Luba&#8221; of the Congo, whose beauty nearly brings tears to my eyes everytime I hear it 2) Chicago&#8217;s Saint Sabina&#8217;s &#8220;Faith Based Community&#8221; with Pfleger as ringleader. The former was a genuine construct to reach out to the local population and offer a completely orthodox Catholic liturgy encorporating elements familiar to the them which in no way detracted from its message, spirit or reverence. The latter is a pittiable condenscending attempt steeped in an anachronistic &#8220;white guilt&#8221; and belief that the local population can&#8217;t theologically or practically handle &#8220;real&#8221; Catholicism; so this is the next best thing. Tripe.</p>
<p>The Catholic church in China is indeed a success story (as is the church in Japan, IMHO) given the centuries of harsh persecution and oppression.  It&#8217;s not about numbers, it&#8217;s about an enduring faith, a beacon of good news, and a legacy of orthodoxy available to future generations should they wish to receive it. If Bl Matteo Ricci is in any way responsible for this legacy, then I too hope he will be canonized.  Either way, I will of course submit to the verdict of the church on this one.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/2010/01/28/bl-matteo-ricci/#comment-866</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Henry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 16:44:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/?p=1411#comment-866</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry, I hit the &quot;post&quot; button too quickly.  I have read, The Wise Man from the West, which I liked very much, but what I would like to read is his actual writings (e.g., Treatise on Friendship &amp; Ten Discourses by a Paradoxical Man).  Have the Jesuits translated those into English?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I hit the &#8220;post&#8221; button too quickly.  I have read, The Wise Man from the West, which I liked very much, but what I would like to read is his actual writings (e.g., Treatise on Friendship &amp; Ten Discourses by a Paradoxical Man).  Have the Jesuits translated those into English?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/2010/01/28/bl-matteo-ricci/#comment-865</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Henry]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jan 2010 16:40:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://whosoeverdesires.wordpress.com/?p=1411#comment-865</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you for sharing this information with us!  The poem is magnificent and your final statement: &lt;b&gt;his unshakeable conviction that Christ is the end of every heart’s yearning.&lt;/b&gt; is precisely why I have become interested in him these last few years.  Can you recommend a good book on him?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for sharing this information with us!  The poem is magnificent and your final statement: <b>his unshakeable conviction that Christ is the end of every heart’s yearning.</b> is precisely why I have become interested in him these last few years.  Can you recommend a good book on him?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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